A Debate on Purpose: Reflections from a Train Journey
On of my recent train journey to Ambur, I got into an engrossing discussion with a Muslim man. Earlier he shared a WhatsApp status claiming that there is NO purpose to life, no life after death and this is the only life we have got. Since the journey was 3 hours long and it has been sometime since I had one of these discussions, I thought why not.
The Encounter
I have captured the conversation that made me nearly miss my destination and have edited for flow and brevity. As is typical of such discussions, each side ends up more convinced than they were before. For me, I wanted to test if there is enough bite in my argument and revisit my thoughts on this subject.
The Discussion
We began by discussing his WhatsApp status: 'There is NO life purpose. We are just another life form on this planet. This is the only life we have. There is no life after death.'
Me
This is your reasoning right, now where does this sense of reasoning come from? It’s surely cannot come from nothing or cannot be a product of an accident.
Him
Sadly, we are just a product of evolution and not of creation. Burden of proof rests with people claiming there is God. If they claim something, it’s their responsibility to prove it true, not everyone else’s responsibility to prove it false.
Me
what sort of proof is required?
Him
You can prove i exist and i can prove you exist. Same way, kindly prove God exists.
Me
That I exist, I’m not a product of chance, I’m intelligently designed, what makes me certain that I exist also implies that design should have a designer
Him
By the logic, who made the designer? Us, the Humans. Circular argument. We are sadly a product of chance. Our very birth is just an accident. There is Zero evidence Zilch to prove there is God.
Me
The existence of creation requires a creator who is not a creation himself. Otherwise the creation would never come into existence. Accidents are destructive, they don’t have creative and constructive value.
Him
Creator was created by sheer imagination when evolution was not understood. With limited brains we humans came up with the Creator myth that is perpetuating to this day.
Me
Your Evolution simply credits intricate design to accidents, that’s not a very intelligent argument I would say.
Him
Absolute accident. Like i say in my status. We cant cope with the fact that we are unimportant.
Me
Accident couldn’t create a livable house much less a livable world. How can accident create intricate and marvelous design that are huge bodies of knowledge?
Him
Exactly.. Lets find that out. Not believe what my parents or your parents believed and handed down to us. Its just indoctrination for ages.
Me
Sure but let’s not credit it to accidents either
Him
Scientists claim that there are 21.6 sextillion planets in the observable universe. Did your God made all of these?
Me
Do you know how many atoms are there in a speck of sand? Anybody who knows the science behind the creation understand that it is not the numbers but the mighty intelligence behind it. A a speck of dust contains a million billion atoms. I say the micro complexity is as mind boggling as macro complexity. Whoever can create a speck of sand can create the universe.
Him
The biggest absurdity of mankind is believing without any evidence. Holding Strong beliefs in the absence of strong evidence is a sign that you lack critical thinking. Conviction should follow facts not precede them. What you want to believe shouldn’t dictate what you believe.
Me
you are describing confirmation bias. The way we break confirmation bias is to look for evidence against pre supposed views. What is your evidence for the universe to be a product of accident?
Him
Religion or God couldn’t even imagine what was to come after the medieval period. None of the scriptures made any mention of the current world or its discoveries or inventions except saying something vague and open to interpretation humbug.
Me
Scriptures( I would only refer Quran) is concerned with absolute realty (God), life before & after death, and the laws of God. All things that humans cannot know by other methods of knowledge. Whether you are a 6th century Bedouin or a 21st century techie, nothing changes. Its like saying in a moral science book you couldn’t find about the latest iPhone
Him
In a philosophical discussion we like to use objective reality as a foundation. God is a terrible foundation. They’re all construct of the human mind rather than a discovery that existed before us and we stumbled upon.
Me
Reality is as much a construct of our mind. We perceive as self evident and claim that we exist for real. There is no proof that we exist for real. Some have claimed our existence is a dream or a shared delusion. A person who is in touch with his nature(the believer or the theist) perceive God as self-evident and absolute reality. We all have to start at some place, start with certain premises, start with beliefs that we see are self evident and take it to their logical conclusion. The world is so complex that it makes sense to credit it to a designer rather than to an accident.
Him
I am not saying your god is not there. I am saying there is no god unless otherwise proved.
Me
You are saying show evidence that is empirical. Science can only answer in terms of natural phenomena and natural processes. You can’t prove your statements(about this being the only life we have) with empirical evidence so what’s the point is being so dogmatic when you can’t prove by the very method that you ask of others.
Him
God doesn’t exist. So plain to see. Period.
Me
Just because something cannot be proved empirically (with the limited tools at it’s disposal) doesn’t mean the opposite is true. Example: until we had powerful microscopes, we were not aware of virus presence. Not correct to say only the observable life exists.
Him
But we did make progress thanks to science not god is unhappy earth is flat crap which would have gotten us nowhere.
Me
We have made progress because we have intelligence and the world around us obeys certain laws so we can use our intelligence to understand what they are
Him
Science. Every life has intelligence. And there are various intelligence. Its not limited to humans.
Me
No life is capable of contemplation as humans are and they are not gifted with the capacity to reason, write and articulate as we do.. so that makes us special. And the tools that we have created due to our progress we can very well used to destroy ourselves. Science can create those tools, our morality is what dictates their usage. And morality is not in the scope of science. Islam tells you that god is the creator and designer of those rules of nature. With our intelligence and empirical approach we discover them. You cannot say there is no life after death, you may say that you don’t know and that there is no empirical evidence so far
Him
I am saying i am not seeing a saber tooth tiger with horns in front of me. Why would i prove its not there in front of me?!
Me
ok let’s assume that you are indeed resurrected after death, at that point wouldn’t it be empirically proved that there is life after death
Him
Likewise, Come to think of what all you have missed out on coz you were busy wasting your time on nonsense.
Me
ok I take that you’re saying it will be empirically proved. so I am just pointing out the limits of empirical approach, like the saber tooth tiger example you gave, you can only say that we have not observed such a creation so far, you cannot say since we have not observed, it doesn’t exist or the bengal tiger is the only tiger we have
Him
Go, observe. Look for saber tooth tiger with a horn. I have better things to do.
Reflection
This is typical of people who think high of themselves, the moment they are cornered, the engage in silliness and miss the whole point.
Me
In summary you don’t have any evidence against intelligent design and your very statements on WhatsApp status cannot be empirically verified. Do you understand the limitations of empiricism?
Him
Are you aware of the idiocy of holding meta magical thinking?!
Me
Saying the whole world came by accident and blind chance, this got to be at the top of the list of Magical thinking.
Conclusion
The discussion ended there as my opponent stopped responding.